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Steve Leibson

Need Another Bit or 2 of A/D Resolution?

Steve Leibson
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intseeker
intseeker
4/6/2013 11:35:41 PM
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Beginner
I will have to use "it's better late than never" excuse here.
I had quite a bit of training in analog signal processing theory, but very little in DSP theory. However, I learned as a consumer to have profound admiration for the breakthroughs of DSP such as the incredible compression of information in a single old fashion analog voice channel. The technique used in this article is very interesting and mind boggling enough to arouse the interest of any motivated electrical engineering student - even the older ones as me. I will try to make time to dig more into this concept. Now, the excuse. The reasons I chipped in so late is I was referred to this blog by David Ashton in the discussion going on in the most recent blog launched this past Thursday by Terry Ashton on DNL in ADCs.

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tomii
tomii
3/3/2013 6:14:28 PM
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Re: Laser Ring Gyros.
@Jez:

 

Doctor doctor Ive got jitter on my dither.

 

 

That's okay, until it's on a log on a hole in the bottom of the sea.  Then you're like that Dutch kid with his thumb stuck in the dike.

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JezmoSSL
JezmoSSL
3/1/2013 1:20:08 PM
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Re: Laser Ring Gyros.
Devel,

Youve got a real thing about dither, what happens if you get jitter on your dither?

apart from having to go to the doctor?

 

Doctor doctor Ive got jitter on my dither.

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devel@latke.net
devel@latke.net
3/1/2013 11:58:02 AM
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Guru
Re: Laser Ring Gyros.
Hamster: Adding noise reminds me of ring laser gyros. They have really good resolution, but can "lock in" if they stand still. to avoid this thay are constantly shaken.

DITHER!

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Max Maxfield
Max Maxfield
3/1/2013 9:34:00 AM
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FPGA LVDS I/O as an Analog Programmable Comparator
@All: Somewhat related to this topic -- don't forget that earlier blog by William: FPGA LVDS I/O as an Analog Programmable Comparator

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tomii
tomii
3/1/2013 8:21:44 AM
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Oversampling and my poor memory...
Welcome!

 

I wish I could oversample my memory and retrieve lost bits...

 

In my past work, we dealt with our ADC's a different way, as the signal was only existant for a short period of time (which was, fortunately, deterministic) - so we got exactly one (!) sample of the data every time.  (maybe 2, depending on how you define it).  This required us to build very high-precision front-ends.  The place I worked for buit ome of the best ADCs available *anywhere* for the environment - in the 90's, the foundry was popping out true 12b ADCs that operated at ~4MHz, with INL and DNL of 1.0 (at ~50% yield).  That's a mean feat, even by today's standards.

Because of the way the sensor that provided the analog signal works, we could use the sensor itself to integrate the signal, because the PSD of the noise function was Gaussian in nature.

But this is perfectly applicable to doing similar things at the ADC.  You can use the ADC to integrate out the noise, too...  It's all about increasing your SNR, and that can be done in either the analog or digital domain - although you pay a bigger penalty in the digital domain (depending on your world view).

So, if there is *NO* noise, there can be no gain in the SNR, and therefor no advantage in oversampling.  If your signal were pure, and you added noise in, I don't believe you're doing yourself any favors, but I don't know the math behind all that any more (it's been years since I've worked it out).  I would aslo tend to think that by using an LFSR to add noise to the system, that you would be adding a lot of noise that is periodic (and therefore not Gaussian) due to the edges in the transitions.  Maybe that spreads out with bandwidht or depth of the LFSR, but I dunno.  But by the same token clock noise on your signal is periodic, and not Gaussian, so is very likely to remain in your final signal, unless you can manage to sample away from thos edge transitions and their propagation effects.  That's not easy, especially since theyre usually ringing.

If you *do* have noise in the system (and if notihng else, the ADC's QSE guarantees the LSB is usually noisy), then you can gain a few extra bits there.

To gain SNR through oversampling, you get an improvement of sqrt(N), where N is the number of samples.  That is, if you sample twice, you get an SNR improvement of sqrt(2).  If you sample 4x, you get an SNR improvement of 2.  Oh, those are multiplicative.  By integrating in the analog domain, you are not adding ADC noise in your samples, and you can ensure that the LSB of your ADC is far down "in the noise."  If you are doing the integration in the digital domain, then the ADC noise becomes one of the components that is lowering your SNR.  (Basically, in the analog domain, we put as much gain as we possibly can right up front, so the net effect of all following components impact on SNR is small by comparison - this is why the LNA in a radio receiver sets the noise floor for the system).

Regardless, there's not usually much point in sampling at more than about 1/2 your SNR (that is, if you have an SNR of 128, there's not really much more than 8 bits of data there).  The only reason we ever really would sample at a deeper resolution than that is to "smooth" the data, but the rule of thumb we always used was to sample at 1/2 SNR.

Now one of the things I find reallyinteresting today is the intentional undersampling of carriers to create software defined radios (SDR).  Turns out that you don't need to sample at fN of the carrier, but only at the fN of the information.  It requires good front-end filters because of the aliasing, but I find it to be really neato!  And it makes the whole analog front end (AFE) easier.  And ADCs easier to find.

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Garcia-Lasheras
Garcia-Lasheras
3/1/2013 3:18:38 AM
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Re: Bringing it to the limit
@Steve: thank you very much for your explanation. I was trying to make up my mind about your blog with a thought-experiment in the limit...

The maths behind using gaussian noise for increasing resolutions seems harsh. I'm used to use oversampling and other techniques for noise suppression and conformation, but I'd never thought about using noise in this way.

¿Noise as a good thing? This blog is very inspiring and thought provoking!!!

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Steve Leibson
Steve Leibson
2/28/2013 10:38:22 PM
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Re: So *that's* how it works!
@Warren: It would be tough to use the on-chip 12-bit A/D converters when you're talking about noise that's on the order of 1 LSB. You need more resolution than that. Fortunately, you need do this at design time, not during run time so you can use a DSO and some spectrum analysis to verify the Gaussian noise distribution and zero dc offset..

--Steve

 

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Steve Leibson
Steve Leibson
2/28/2013 10:33:20 PM
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Re: Bringing it to the limit
@Garcia-Lasheras: As Max has already pointed out, there are 1-bit A/D converters although they don't use this particular technique. Say you want 12 bits of resolution from a 1-bit converter. You need 4^11 samples to extend the resolution. That's 2^12 samples or 4096 samples per oversample. For a 1KHz signal, you need a 4Msamples/sec converter.

There are easier ways to digitize a signal and I'm afraid you're really beyond the law of diminishing returns long before this. I'd not try to extend an A/D converter's range by more than two bits with this technique, based on what I've read. In true digital engineer's form, I'm using the approximations of the actual math so I know there be monsters lurking if I violate the rules associated with those assumptions. In other words, I'd have to understand the math better.

--Steve

 

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Steve Leibson
Steve Leibson
2/28/2013 10:25:24 PM
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Re: So that's how it works...
Thanks David, I try to make things as clear as I can. It's always good to know I succeeded, at least in this case.

--Steve

 

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